What was your spiritual practice prior to Zen? When did you find Zen? I've heard you
say that Zen "just fit you". Why do you think it was such a cozy fit?
Before Zen, mostly the hedonistic indulgence of the rock 'n roll lifestyle. After Zen, the puritanical
dissociation from my shadow that so often comes with the honeymoon period of Zen, or any
other interior practice. The last few years, I feel the two starting to integrate. But it's slow. And
messy. And miraculous. Zen was a fit for me because in my experience it's the most radical
about not giving you something to cling to. It's not a religion. It's not a philosophy. It can
include religion and philosophy, but Zen is not religion or philosophy, in my experience. And it
takes whatever you clutch as "it" and dissolves that too. What's left when Great Doubt has
annihilated it all? Zen also has a good funny bone. Doesn't take itself to seriously, which I really
like. I like humor as a vehicle for awakening.
Did Zen expedite your state AND stage growth?
Yes and no. I think the first few years of Zen, I just converted my rock 'n roll state-chasing
(drugs, sex, etc) into meditation. Then I was a bliss-state chaser, and a subtle state-chaser, and I
became fixated on those. So I did get access to them, but they came and went like anything
else. So, I increased access to states, but also clutched them. Then, I got married, had kids, and
my family life really exposed my limitations in terms of stages. I had a lot of shadow stuff going
on, and a pretty low center of gravity in some ways, from a decade in rock 'n. Never had a boss,
or accountability to anyone. Then I got a wife, two kids, and a teacher (Genpo Roshi) and
suddenly it became painfully obviously what a self-absorbed
asshole I was (am). Integrating that shadow stuff, and moving the center of gravity up and
outward is a slow process, and you can't just meditate. Meditation doesn't necessarily equal
developing through
stages, but I think combined with relationships, commitment to shadow work, etc, it helps a lot.
Have you practiced other meditative techniques besides Zazen?
Some. Sufi Dhikr, Contemplative prayer. But mostly Zazen.
Were you consistently meditating before you found Wilber's work, specifically the Aha
moment of learning about states and stages? Will you describe a bit about how your
interpretations of states changed after you learned of more advanced stages of
interpretation?
My drummer was a Zen monk, and he taught me how to meditate a few months before I
discovered ken's stuff. After I read Sex, Ecology, Spirituality by Ken Wilber, it really blew the lid off
my life, and I spent about a year just assembling myself again. It became so clear how partial I'd
been, how chronic the inclination to take one thing, one part of me, one method, one practice,
and then make it "THE"
thing. Like you can just meditate. Or just do drugs. Or just have sex, or read, or go to therapy,
etc, and that one thing will do it. Ken's work really challenged me toward being a more whole
human being, and I am still living with that question in new ways each day. It's quite a koan,
becoming an Agent of the Mystery.
What's it like to be more fully enlightened than Sakyamuni himself?
Effortless.
I know your teacher, Genpo Roshi, has developed a technique called Big Mind.
Instead of killing the ego as in traditional Buddhism, he teaches one to recognize
different aspects of the ego and then embrace or integrate them. I've heard you call
this the "Fourth Turning of the Wheel." Could you speak a little more about this?
Why do you think this is happening in "the Western world"? In your opinion what
significance could this discovery have on the western world and Zen in general?
I call it that, "the fourth turning of the wheel", but I'm not sure Genpo does. He may, he may
not, but in general I do think that's what's occurring in the West, a fourth turning. The fourth
turning is Integral. The first three vehicles Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana each expanded
and increased orders of whole-ness in practice and realization. I feel Integral is the fourth turning
of the wheel, (Integral-yana?), and it rests on the shoulders of Ken Wilber, Genpo Roshi, Patrick
Sweeney, Father Thomas Keating, Andrew Cohen, Swami Sally, and literally thousands of others
who are actively developing an integral approach to awakening in the modern world. Once you
get what "integral" means in LIFE, in the human condition (not just as a theory) it becomes very
difficult to deny how powerful and useful it is to increase our awakening, deepen our capacity to
authentically love.
It isn't enough anymore, to just meditate and "wake up". We have all of these important
distinctions, unique insights from the West, that have improved how we play the Game of Being.
For starters, the simple distinction between states and stages. You have an enlightenment
experience, it may last minutes, or days, or years. But that is NOT the same thing as moving the
center of gravity (stage) of self upward and outward. If you're not careful, and you just
meditate, you became someone adept in state-access (horizontal) with a low center of gravity.
It's very common, even (or especially) in Zen, Shambhala, and the traditions with advanced
practices of interiority. Meditating won't integrate your shadow. That's how you get someone
who knows they have aids still having sex with students, which happened in Buddhism right here
in Boulder. That's how you get new age types saying no one has the right to judge anyone else
about "where they're at". Really? I can't judge a loving mother to be better than a crack head
who beats her kids? Actual development is a bitch, but it's really what is required for us -as
humans- to navigate through this bottle-neck period. Plus, there's just no getting around the
fact that Integral allows us to include more. That means we have even more love, even more
awakened awareness, more intimacy -and it is deeper. Why would we settle for less? How can we
settle for less? That's what I think the fourth turning of the wheel is about. Vertical and horizontal
access to love. Strong distinctions between states and stages, which will mean less confusion and
suffering. And so on.
Zen has a tradition called "crazy wisdom". Do you consider yourself to be part of this
lineage?
The crazy part, yes.
When did you first find Wilber? Did it instantly resonate with you?
I found him, I think, in 1995. I instantly resonated, yes. The first book changed my life.
Since we all MUST progress through the entire spectrum of consciousness, I will
assume you had a "green" period in your life. Will you tell us a bit about that? How
much longer do you think it would have taken you to evolve past green if you hadn't
found Wilber's work? Or were you already post-green before finding Wilber?
I had a very green period. I wrote all sorts of environmental songs, deconstructed everything,
was very pious about it all. But I think it's crucial to note I'm still GREEN and want to be! It's not
like you go through a level of development, then are done with it. I very much want to, and
need to include every dimension and altitude of ME that I've ever accessed. That includes pre-
conventionol stuff (magic, egoic, etc), conventional (mythic, rational), and post-conventional
(green, integral, etc). I need and want access to all of them. There's a real tendency toward "anti-
green" that pops up in Integral. I have very much been guilt of it as well. It's understandable, as
development works through
A, identification
B, dis-identification
C, integration
right now, a lot of us are dis-identifying with Green, and that's a good sign. But we will of course
need to integrate it, or we will have a nasty shadow thing going on. So, I want to be clear I love
the green part of me, and the green part of the culture, etc. It is riddled with confusion and
problems, but those problems are better ones then say, they have in Somalia.
When you were nested in your "green" phase do you think you would have instantly
recognized the egoic nature of the Secret?
Yes. Because the secret is actually a Purple manifesto for Red (using spiral dynamics) devils. It
uses straightforward magical thinking to lure the ego into the Odyssey of Acquisition.
Why do you think the Secret is resonating so deeply with many Americans at this
time? Is it just because Oprah endorses it? Or is there a deeper underlying reason
pertaining to stages of consciousness? Or both?
For the same reason pornography is the most popular thing on the web. Immediate gratification
of the lowest common denominator. The Secret begins with a partial truth -our thoughts
influence reality- and then inflates it to a lie (our thoughts create reality). It's Harry Potter for
narcissists. See my blog for a detailed description of the danger in this.
Do you worry that "green" levels of consciousness and below will find Episode 7 of the
Stuart Davis Show demeaning? You give them hell Stuart. Or am I just being "green"
myself by worrying about feelings?
Well, remember, I'm giving myself hell too. Those purple, red, blue, orange, and green altitudes
are ME. I really do have an insanely ego-maniacal dimension. I really do have a sensitive green
part. I have a purple layer. And so on. But I also have a subject that can see them, and realize
what their assets are, and what their liabilities may be. Personally, I think it's funny. I have fallen
for these kinds of things over and over. Can I laugh at myself? Can I laugh at the different
altitudes of myself and still love them?
But my deepest loyalty is to Reality, not to a particular aspect of it. So, I believe in the ruthless
approach to comedy, because it's the quickest path to clarity, truth, awakening, etc. I don't
think we can be in the business of merely protecting people's feelings, at the expense of Reality. I
don't believe in mean spirited assassinations either, but if we sat around not trying to piss anyone
off, we'd be stuck. On a good day, I'll admit I'm an egomaniac with a lot of shadow, and try to
work with it, and I will need a lot of help (wife,
kids, friends, community). I am every altitude, and I want access to them all, but I also want to
make choices and distinctions. What is more inclusive? I want to be able to pick the pebbles out
of my rice.
The Secret is almost all pebbles, very little rice.
Do you think the Secret could resonate equally as strongly in "the Eastern world"? Or
is this strictly a western cultural phenomenon?
I think it would resonate anywhere you have people with egos, tempted by Kosmic Bypass.
That's most of us. That's not necessarily unique to the West, although we seem to have taken it
to a degree that's
unusual. Prosperity in the information age comes with new riddles, this is one of them.
Describe the Secret in an original Stuart Davis haiku.
Shiny pebbles
Mixed with rice
Teething Buddhas
If a person finds Wilber's work while nesting in the "orange" stage, is it possible to
SKIP the "green" stage all together and immediately begin operating with Integral or
"turquoise" soft-ware?
Mmm. I don't know. I've heard some say Orange and Green are parallel altitudes, but I wouldn't
know. I think the big question is the difference between "cognitive" access and a person's actual
center of gravity. I think it's quite easy for many to get this stuff intellectually, but it's another
thing to work the whole human being. Think of mixing board with all those faders. You can slide
one channel up to "10" and the vocal gets really loud, but then the mix is out of whack. You
need to be able to work all the faders. Cognition is good, Ken always says it's necessary but not
sufficient, and I think that's true.
Please describe the strange connection between "green" and "red" levels of
consciousness. Why do you believe they are so compatible?
Green is pluralistic. It wants everything equal. "Don't judge, don't marginalize". It's perfect for
Red, because then it can do what it wants without being judged or held accountable. When you
get green
saying "who are WE to judge another person's journey, who are we to judge someone's
PROCESS?" then you get Red going "cool. Don't judge me, I'm going Caligula on your ass."
Pretending Wilber and Integral didn't exist, how else can one bridge the gap between
"green" levels of consciousness and a more integral embrace?
It's a good question. Cuz I think people often equate Wilber with Integral, but it's just not the
case. He's the Bodhisattva of Integral for sure, but he's simply describing and cultivating a feature
of humanity, not inventing it. So, you don't have to have Wilber to go Integral, in my opinion it's
just incredibly helpful to
study his stuff, because it's the most exhaustive and brilliant resource currently.
Generally though, I feel you could bridge Green to a more Integral embrace by acquainting it with
its own brilliance and its limitations. It's been so wonderful in moving us toward pluralism. It has
increased our sensitivity toward each other (race, gender, etc), the plight of our species in relation
to our biosphere, and has given us a boon of cultural creatives that are visionaries in many
regards. But it's pathologies and limitations are real. It's incapacity to make critical value
judgements, retro-romantic notions of a "return" to
some Edenic version of environmentalism, enthusiastic embrace of narcissistic regression (The
Secret), ridiculous appropriation of quantum mechanics (What the Bleep), have resulted in
paralysis at time
we simply cannot afford to luxuriate in such confusion. If we take a sober look at both of those -
good and bad- I think our dynamic nature (evolutionary impulse) is greater than the stasis (green
quagmire).
We've made it through a lot. Magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic altitudes have emerged within us,
and now Integral Awareness is calling us. It's not a theory, a philosophy, it's a dimension of us,
that can open a whole new mode of Love on Earth. Not a solution to all our problems, but better
problems. Not the end of trouble, but better trouble.
What is your opinion of Oprah?
I love Oprah. Despite my somewhat stern blog about The Secret and the way she's endorsed it, I
think Oprah has done an immeasurable amount of good for the World, and she is one of my
heroes. I watch her all the time, and I wish we had many more like her.
List your 3 favorite "green" teachers.
Oprah, Bjork, Ken Wilber. Oprah is obvious. She's a planetary lightening rod for so much of the
best of Green. Bjork to me exemplifies the very best artistic genius in the post-modern sense.
Ken Wilber has done more than anyone I know to lovingly (tough love, true) encourage green to
a greater, wider embrace of their own humanity. Ken has taken a very difficult task on, by being
willing to be un-popular with some of the green in order to manifest something more whole and
enduring for all of humanity in the long run. Say what you will, Ken has deeply, profoundly
engaged green in a way that few could, and even fewer would be willing to, and it is precisely
because he sees and expects even more from them. If he didn't love them, didn't give a shit, he
would just dismiss them. But MOST importantly, Ken IS green. So am I. These are altitudes
within each of us, and we need them, we continue to nurture and include them, even after the
radius has expanded beyond them.
My friend Paul Lonely quoted Ken the other day: "Partiality is the new sin." Do you
agree? If so, how do you balance "rock star" Stuart and "monk" Stuart? There
seems to be a funny line to play with. Does it ever get confusing for you? Do you
think there are extremes of embracing one side more than the other?
I do agree with that. It does get confusing to me. But as my friend Vidyuddeva says, "People
think there's confusion, and there's clarity, and that to have clarity you have to get rid of
confusion. But that's
a confusion. There's clarity, and there's confusion. That's fine."
In your audio book there is a chapter on marriage called "open marriage open
wound". Have your ideas of relationships changed as you've "climbed the ladder" or
experienced deeper levels of consciousness?
Very much. Open Marriage, Open Wound has generated an incredible amount of reaction. I've
been surprised by how many people are contending with this riddle. Basically, I think that like
anything,
the institution of marriage is evolving. Strict monogamy is bound to be (in some way) the
vestigial organ of the inter-subjective domain. But, I really don't know what will come in its place,
or what romantic
/ marriage relationships will eventually be like, in the main-stream sense. I think it's pretty freaking
obvious that our monogamous institution of marriage is a bit of a joke. We just don't work that
way, increasingly so. But it's a messy, tricky gig. I am continuing to live with this puzzle, and
would not want to offer advice or anything to bold.
Please describe the differences between horizontal and vertical enlightenment.
Briefly, horizontal is access to states. Vertical is the developmental center of gravity. I can have a
horizontal state-experience of What Is, and it doesn't necessarily mean my center of gravity will
move. I will interpret the horizontal state experience from whatever vertical altitude (center of
gravity) I am
anchored in. I could also have a very high, or deep, or expansive vertical center of gravity, and
not necessarily have a very advanced access to states (meditative, etc). They interact, but are
quite
distinct. Double axis of "enlightenment". I always think of this when I see a crucifix. I think Christ
was pinned at the Point of All Places, at the intersection of vertical and horizontal enlightenment
What is Integral Art?
That's a question I'm living. One answer is: What isn't Integral Art. See my song "¿What" for
details.
You, Wilber, Paul Lonely all have shaved heads. What is the significance of this?
I look better without hair. It's vanity. I can't speak for Ken and Paul.
____________________________________________________
Stuart Davis - Thank you for your time, clarity and above all, LOVE!
OMV, Malena Gamboa - Editor
03/07
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