What was your spiritual practice prior to Zen? When did you find Zen? I've heard you say that
Zen "just fit you". Why do you think it was such a cozy fit?
Before Zen, mostly the hedonistic indulgence of the rock 'n roll lifestyle. After Zen, the puritanical
dissociation from my shadow that so often comes with the honeymoon period of Zen, or any other
interior practice. The last few years, I feel the two starting to integrate. But it's slow. And messy. And
miraculous. Zen was a fit for me because in my experience it's the most radical about not giving you
something to cling to. It's not a religion. It's not a philosophy. It can include religion and philosophy,
but Zen is not religion or philosophy, in my experience. And it takes whatever you clutch as "it" and
dissolves that too. What's left when Great Doubt has annihilated it all? Zen also has a good funny bone.
Doesn't take itself to seriously, which I really like. I like humor as a vehicle for awakening.
Did Zen expedite your state AND stage growth?
Yes and no. I think the first few years of Zen, I just converted my rock 'n roll state-chasing (drugs, sex,
etc) into meditation. Then I was a bliss-state chaser, and a subtle state-chaser, and I became fixated on
those. So I did get access to them, but they came and went like anything else. So, I increased access to
states, but also clutched them. Then, I got married, had kids, and my family life really exposed my
limitations in terms of stages. I had a lot of shadow stuff going on, and a pretty low center of gravity in
some ways, from a decade in rock 'n. Never had a boss, or accountability to anyone. Then I got a wife,
two kids, and a teacher (Genpo Roshi) and suddenly it became painfully obviously what a self-absorbed
asshole I was (am). Integrating that shadow stuff, and moving the center of gravity up and outward is a
slow process, and you can't just meditate. Meditation doesn't necessarily equal developing through
stages, but I think combined with relationships, commitment to shadow work, etc, it helps a lot.
Have you practiced other meditative techniques besides Zazen?
Some. Sufi Dhikr, Contemplative prayer. But mostly Zazen.
Were you consistently meditating before you found Wilber's work, specifically the Aha moment
of learning about states and stages? Will you describe a bit about how your interpretations of
states changed after you learned of more advanced stages of interpretation?
My drummer was a Zen monk, and he taught me how to meditate a few months before I discovered
ken's stuff. After I read Sex, Ecology, Spirituality by Ken Wilber, it really blew the lid off my life, and I
spent about a year just assembling myself again. It became so clear how partial I'd been, how chronic
the inclination to take one thing, one part of me, one method, one practice, and then make it "THE"
thing. Like you can just meditate. Or just do drugs. Or just have sex, or read, or go to therapy, etc, and
that one thing will do it. Ken's work really challenged me toward being a more whole human being, and I
am still living with that question in new ways each day. It's quite a koan, becoming an Agent of the
Mystery.
What's it like to be more fully enlightened than Sakyamuni himself?
Effortless.
I know your teacher, Genpo Roshi, has developed a technique called Big Mind. Instead of killing
the ego as in traditional Buddhism, he teaches one to recognize different aspects of the ego and
then embrace or integrate them. I've heard you call this the "Fourth Turning of the Wheel."
Could you speak a little more about this? Why do you think this is happening in "the Western
world"? In your opinion what significance could this discovery have on the western world and
Zen in general?
I call it that, "the fourth turning of the wheel", but I'm not sure Genpo does. He may, he may not, but in
general I do think that's what's occurring in the West, a fourth turning. The fourth turning is Integral.
The first three vehicles Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana each expanded and increased orders of
whole-ness in practice and realization. I feel Integral is the fourth turning of the wheel, (Integral-yana?),
and it rests on the shoulders of Ken Wilber, Genpo Roshi, Patrick Sweeney, Father Thomas Keating,
Andrew Cohen, Swami Sally, and literally thousands of others who are actively developing an integral
approach to awakening in the modern world. Once you get what "integral" means in LIFE, in the human
condition (not just as a theory) it becomes very difficult to deny how powerful and useful it is to increase
our awakening, deepen our capacity to authentically love.
It isn't enough anymore, to just meditate and "wake up". We have all of these important distinctions,
unique insights from the West, that have improved how we play the Game of Being. For starters, the
simple distinction between states and stages. You have an enlightenment experience, it may last minutes,
or days, or years. But that is NOT the same thing as moving the center of gravity (stage) of self upward
and outward. If you're not careful, and you just meditate, you became someone adept in state-access
(horizontal) with a low center of gravity. It's very common, even (or especially) in Zen, Shambhala, and
the traditions with advanced practices of interiority. Meditating won't integrate your shadow. That's
how you get someone who knows they have aids still having sex with students, which happened in
Buddhism right here in Boulder. That's how you get new age types saying no one has the right to judge
anyone else about "where they're at". Really? I can't judge a loving mother to be better than a crack
head who beats her kids? Actual development is a bitch, but it's really what is required for us -as
humans- to navigate through this bottle-neck period. Plus, there's just no getting around the fact that
Integral allows us to include more. That means we have even more love, even more awakened
awareness, more intimacy -and it is deeper. Why would we settle for less? How can we settle for less?
That's what I think the fourth turning of the wheel is about. Vertical and horizontal access to love.
Strong distinctions between states and stages, which will mean less confusion and suffering. And so on.
Zen has a tradition called "crazy wisdom". Do you consider yourself to be part of this lineage?
The crazy part, yes.
When did you first find Wilber? Did it instantly resonate with you?
I found him, I think, in 1995. I instantly resonated, yes. The first book changed my life.
Since we all MUST progress through the entire spectrum of consciousness, I will assume you had
a "green" period in your life. Will you tell us a bit about that? How much longer do you think it
would have taken you to evolve past green if you hadn't found Wilber's work? Or were you
already post-green before finding Wilber?
I had a very green period. I wrote all sorts of environmental songs, deconstructed everything, was very
pious about it all. But I think it's crucial to note I'm still GREEN and want to be! It's not like you go
through a level of development, then are done with it. I very much want to, and need to include every
dimension and altitude of ME that I've ever accessed. That includes pre-conventionol stuff (magic,
egoic, etc), conventional (mythic, rational), and post-conventional (green, integral, etc). I need and want
access to all of them. There's a real tendency toward "anti-green" that pops up in Integral. I have very
much been guilt of it as well. It's understandable, as development works through
A, identification
B, dis-identification
C, integration
right now, a lot of us are dis-identifying with Green, and that's a good sign. But we will of course need
to integrate it, or we will have a nasty shadow thing going on. So, I want to be clear I love the green
part of me, and the green part of the culture, etc. It is riddled with confusion and problems, but those
problems are better ones then say, they have in Somalia.
When you were nested in your "green" phase do you think you would have instantly recognized
the egoic nature of the Secret?
Yes. Because the secret is actually a Purple manifesto for Red (using spiral dynamics) devils. It uses
straightforward magical thinking to lure the ego into the Odyssey of Acquisition.
Why do you think the Secret is resonating so deeply with many Americans at this time? Is it
just because Oprah endorses it? Or is there a deeper underlying reason pertaining to stages of
consciousness? Or both?
For the same reason pornography is the most popular thing on the web. Immediate gratification of the
lowest common denominator. The Secret begins with a partial truth -our thoughts influence reality- and
then inflates it to a lie (our thoughts create reality). It's Harry Potter for narcissists. See my blog for a
detailed description of the danger in this.
Do you worry that "green" levels of consciousness and below will find Episode 7 of the Stuart
Davis Show demeaning? You give them hell Stuart. Or am I just being "green" myself by
worrying about feelings?
Well, remember, I'm giving myself hell too. Those purple, red, blue, orange, and green altitudes are ME.
I really do have an insanely ego-maniacal dimension. I really do have a sensitive green part. I have a
purple layer. And so on. But I also have a subject that can see them, and realize what their assets are,
and what their liabilities may be. Personally, I think it's funny. I have fallen for these kinds of things
over and over. Can I laugh at myself? Can I laugh at the different altitudes of myself and still love them?
But my deepest loyalty is to Reality, not to a particular aspect of it. So, I believe in the ruthless approach
to comedy, because it's the quickest path to clarity, truth, awakening, etc. I don't think we can be in the
business of merely protecting people's feelings, at the expense of Reality. I don't believe in mean spirited
assassinations either, but if we sat around not trying to piss anyone off, we'd be stuck. On a good day,
I'll admit I'm an egomaniac with a lot of shadow, and try to work with it, and I will need a lot of help
(wife,
kids, friends, community). I am every altitude, and I want access to them all, but I also want to make
choices and distinctions. What is more inclusive? I want to be able to pick the pebbles out of my rice.
The Secret is almost all pebbles, very little rice.
Do you think the Secret could resonate equally as strongly in "the Eastern world"? Or is this
strictly a western cultural phenomenon?
I think it would resonate anywhere you have people with egos, tempted by Kosmic Bypass. That's most
of us. That's not necessarily unique to the West, although we seem to have taken it to a degree that's
unusual. Prosperity in the information age comes with new riddles, this is one of them.
Describe the Secret in an original Stuart Davis haiku.
Shiny pebbles
Mixed with rice
Teething Buddhas
If a person finds Wilber's work while nesting in the "orange" stage, is it possible to SKIP the
"green" stage all together and immediately begin operating with Integral or "turquoise" soft-
ware?
Mmm. I don't know. I've heard some say Orange and Green are parallel altitudes, but I wouldn't know.
I think the big question is the difference between "cognitive" access and a person's actual center of
gravity. I think it's quite easy for many to get this stuff intellectually, but it's another thing to work the
whole human being. Think of mixing board with all those faders. You can slide one channel up to "10"
and the vocal gets really loud, but then the mix is out of whack. You need to be able to work all the
faders. Cognition is good, Ken always says it's necessary but not sufficient, and I think that's true.
Please describe the strange connection between "green" and "red" levels of consciousness. Why
do you believe they are so compatible?
Green is pluralistic. It wants everything equal. "Don't judge, don't marginalize". It's perfect for Red,
because then it can do what it wants without being judged or held accountable. When you get green
saying "who are WE to judge another person's journey, who are we to judge someone's PROCESS?"
then you get Red going "cool. Don't judge me, I'm going Caligula on your ass."
Pretending Wilber and Integral didn't exist, how else can one bridge the gap between "green"
levels of consciousness and a more integral embrace?
It's a good question. Cuz I think people often equate Wilber with Integral, but it's just not the case. He's
the Bodhisattva of Integral for sure, but he's simply describing and cultivating a feature of humanity, not
inventing it. So, you don't have to have Wilber to go Integral, in my opinion it's just incredibly helpful to
study his stuff, because it's the most exhaustive and brilliant resource currently.
Generally though, I feel you could bridge Green to a more Integral embrace by acquainting it with its
own brilliance and its limitations. It's been so wonderful in moving us toward pluralism. It has increased
our sensitivity toward each other (race, gender, etc), the plight of our species in relation to our
biosphere, and has given us a boon of cultural creatives that are visionaries in many regards. But it's
pathologies and limitations are real. It's incapacity to make critical value judgements, retro-romantic
notions of a "return" to
some Edenic version of environmentalism, enthusiastic embrace of narcissistic regression (The Secret),
ridiculous appropriation of quantum mechanics (What the Bleep), have resulted in paralysis at time
we simply cannot afford to luxuriate in such confusion. If we take a sober look at both of those -good
and bad- I think our dynamic nature (evolutionary impulse) is greater than the stasis (green quagmire).
We've made it through a lot. Magic, mythic, rational, pluralistic altitudes have emerged within us, and
now Integral Awareness is calling us. It's not a theory, a philosophy, it's a dimension of us, that can
open a whole new mode of Love on Earth. Not a solution to all our problems, but better problems. Not
the end of trouble, but better trouble.
What is your opinion of Oprah?
I love Oprah. Despite my somewhat stern blog about The Secret and the way she's endorsed it, I think
Oprah has done an immeasurable amount of good for the World, and she is one of my heroes. I watch
her all the time, and I wish we had many more like her.
List your 3 favorite "green" teachers.
Oprah, Bjork, Ken Wilber. Oprah is obvious. She's a planetary lightening rod for so much of the best
of Green. Bjork to me exemplifies the very best artistic genius in the post-modern sense. Ken Wilber has
done more than anyone I know to lovingly (tough love, true) encourage green to a greater, wider
embrace of their own humanity. Ken has taken a very difficult task on, by being willing to be un-popular
with some of the green in order to manifest something more whole and enduring for all of humanity in
the long run. Say what you will, Ken has deeply, profoundly engaged green in a way that few could, and
even fewer would be willing to, and it is precisely because he sees and expects even more from them. If
he didn't love them, didn't give a shit, he would just dismiss them. But MOST importantly, Ken IS
green. So am I. These are altitudes within each of us, and we need them, we continue to nurture and
include them, even after the radius has expanded beyond them.
My friend Paul Lonely quoted Ken the other day: "Partiality is the new sin." Do you agree? If
so, how do you balance "rock star" Stuart and "monk" Stuart? There seems to be a funny line
to play with. Does it ever get confusing for you? Do you think there are extremes of embracing
one side more than the other?
I do agree with that. It does get confusing to me. But as my friend Vidyuddeva says, "People think
there's confusion, and there's clarity, and that to have clarity you have to get rid of confusion. But that's
a confusion. There's clarity, and there's confusion. That's fine."
In your audio book there is a chapter on marriage called "open marriage open wound". Have
your ideas of relationships changed as you've "climbed the ladder" or experienced deeper levels
of consciousness?
Very much. Open Marriage, Open Wound has generated an incredible amount of reaction. I've been
surprised by how many people are contending with this riddle. Basically, I think that like anything,
the institution of marriage is evolving. Strict monogamy is bound to be (in some way) the vestigial organ
of the inter-subjective domain. But, I really don't know what will come in its place, or what romantic
/ marriage relationships will eventually be like, in the main-stream sense. I think it's pretty freaking
obvious that our monogamous institution of marriage is a bit of a joke. We just don't work that way,
increasingly so. But it's a messy, tricky gig. I am continuing to live with this puzzle, and would not
want to offer advice or anything to bold.
Please describe the differences between horizontal and vertical enlightenment.
Briefly, horizontal is access to states. Vertical is the developmental center of gravity. I can have a
horizontal state-experience of What Is, and it doesn't necessarily mean my center of gravity will move.
I will interpret the horizontal state experience from whatever vertical altitude (center of gravity) I am
anchored in. I could also have a very high, or deep, or expansive vertical center of gravity, and not
necessarily have a very advanced access to states (meditative, etc). They interact, but are quite
distinct. Double axis of "enlightenment". I always think of this when I see a crucifix. I think Christ was
pinned at the Point of All Places, at the intersection of vertical and horizontal enlightenment
What is Integral Art?
That's a question I'm living. One answer is: What isn't Integral Art. See my song "¿What" for details.
You, Wilber, Paul Lonely all have shaved heads. What is the significance of this?
I look better without hair. It's vanity. I can't speak for Ken and Paul.
____________________________________________________
Stuart Davis - Thank you for your time, clarity and above all, LOVE!
OMV, Malena Gamboa - Editor
03/07
|
|
